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Old 08-13-2013, 02:55 PM
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Default 5-card Omaha

Anyone have an opinion on what the best starting hands are in this form of poker?
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Old 08-13-2013, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by The Chaperone View Post
Anyone have an opinion on what the best starting hands are in this form of poker?
I believe this goes in TBC Thread, sir.
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Old 08-13-2013, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by The Chaperone View Post
Anyone have an opinion on what the best starting hands are in this form of poker?
Assuming we're talking about hi-only, I'm going with double suited aces with 3-card rundowns. Something like AAJT9ss has got to be pretty strong. Something like AKQJTss or any kind of five card double-suited rundown should be pretty strong, as well as something like 876544 or JT9877. I think a four-card rundown with the pair on top is a bit weaker, because in those cases you do flop a set your straight draw that goes along with it is not to the nuts. So, a hand like 99876 that hits a K 9 6 flop neither has the nuts nor is drawing to the nuts with most of its outs. I'd still play it though. But for the four card pair plus rundown hands, you'll generally want the pair to be one of the two lowest cards, because you can at least be drawing to the nuts even when you don't flop the nuts.

In general, I think all non-nut flushes go way, way down in value. They're already very marginal in 4-card PLO, but they're a disaster in 5-card PLO. Their real value comes in backdoor potential in flop all-in spots, or in AIPF spots, or just as blockers against the NFD on the flop. You should never see flops with Kxs or Qsx hands unless they have a lot of other stuff working for them, such as the aforementioned rundowns and pair + rundowns. The same can be said for small pairs. Something like 66 is trash unless it is in the context of a hand like 87665.
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Old 08-13-2013, 05:10 PM
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The thread is about low limit 5 card O8. In the TBC thread, TBC posted that AAKK2 ds is the best starting hand in a low limit 5 card O8 game. ToledoTom told him that there are better hands. TBC replied "what the hell would u pick? u only get to use 2. surely u wouldnt consider a wheel a better hand. ud have no shot at the high only using 2."

A few people (and me) pointed out that AA234 ds is better, along with various other AA2 ds combos with two unpaired low cards, and some goofball Hecky keeps insisting that AAKK2 ds is better because it has higher heads up equity vs AA234 ds. We keep pointing out that heads up equity isn't relevant to multiway pots (i.e. 33 > AKs and A2o > KQs in hu equity but the latter hands are much better in a limit full ring game and various other scenarios), but he isn't having any of it.

Anyway, CM's post above was certainly interesting food for thought, as I do see 5 card PLO high only spread in a few places around here.
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Old 08-13-2013, 05:26 PM
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For 5-card PLO8 and I guess limit 5-card O8 then, yes, you want double-suited AA234 type hands. A2346 and AK234 are great as well. KK is largely irrelevant, but I guess AAKK2 is fine too. I would play almost any AA2 hand. Having a 6 as part of your AA2 or A2 hands is a nice bonus. You will sometimes quarter someone when you hit a higher straight and the wheel.

Some of the best games I've ever played in have been 5-card PLO8 or have involved 5-card PLO8 as part of a PL/NL mix. Unfortunately, this game rarely goes and, when it does, it is rarely at stakes I like.
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Old 08-13-2013, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Craps Master View Post
For 5-card PLO8 and I guess limit 5-card O8 then, yes, you want double-suited AA234 type hands. A2346 and AK234 are great as well. KK is largely irrelevant, but I guess AAKK2 is fine too. I would play almost any AA2 hand. Having a 6 as part of your AA2 or A2 hands is a nice bonus. You will sometimes quarter someone when you hit a higher straight and the wheel.

Some of the best games I've ever played in have been 5-card PLO8 or have involved 5-card PLO8 as part of a PL/NL mix. Unfortunately, this game rarely goes and, when it does, it is rarely at stakes I like.
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Old 08-21-2013, 01:51 AM
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wtf how did i double post. misplaced edit. my bad.

Last edited by hecky; 08-21-2013 at 02:05 AM.
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Old 08-21-2013, 01:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GroovinMahoovinPartDeux View Post
The thread is about low limit 5 card O8. In the TBC thread, TBC posted that AAKK2 ds is the best starting hand in a low limit 5 card O8 game. ToledoTom told him that there are better hands. TBC replied "what the hell would u pick? u only get to use 2. surely u wouldnt consider a wheel a better hand. ud have no shot at the high only using 2."

A few people (and me) pointed out that AA234 ds is better, along with various other AA2 ds combos with two unpaired low cards, and some goofball Hecky keeps insisting that AAKK2 ds is better because it has higher heads up equity vs AA234 ds. We keep pointing out that heads up equity isn't relevant to multiway pots (i.e. 33 > AKs and A2o > KQs in hu equity but the latter hands are much better in a limit full ring game and various other scenarios), but he isn't having any of it.

Anyway, CM's post above was certainly interesting food for thought, as I do see 5 card PLO high only spread in a few places around here.

You have serious mental issues. In PLO, where most of the money is getting in preflop, equities are quite relevant. When playing deep they're not, blah blah blah.

Lol @ KK being largely irrelevant. OOOOOOOk guys. PokerKat demonstrated how strong KK is when he simmed AAAKK ds against A2345 or something silly. He actually argued against his own point on accident trying to show how irrelevant "hotncold equites" are but instead demonstrating how strong KK actually is. Even with a 4 card hand that had a dead card, it beat some wheel hand in equity.

When you are playing PLO-8 5 card, and getting it allin preflop, often you will be seeing people with A2xxx or A3xxx type hands. Those hands will take away equity from your AA234 hand in a way that is not shown in your stupid random equity tests, Groovin. Yes, we agreed that simming against something other than random hands would be an improvement. You just want to soo bad to prove to everyone you're the smartest guy, so you want everyone to just blindly accept your bullshit assumptions. I just asked for hard data, which neither of us have.

We were arguing different things, but lets not go there because it is far far far far far far far far far more important for you to prove to this message board that you are right.

You argued very strongly because you are stuck on this limit game. (Have you even played 5 card omaha8 limit? seriously. I've never even seen the game.) Most of my arguing was based on analyzing PL style of the game where all the other stuff you prattled on about is irrelevant. I can say this a 100 times and you'll just ignore it and go down some other asinine thread of thought. Been there, done that. Don't give a shit.

You said an awful lot of nonsense yourself that was infact 100% wrong.

Literally the only thing I learned in that whole thread was that your intellectual honesty is quite lacking and you are purely driven by some pathetic ego.

Last edited by hecky; 08-21-2013 at 02:06 AM.
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Old 08-21-2013, 02:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hecky View Post
You have serious mental issues.
Uh, project much?

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In PLO, where most of the money is getting in preflop, equities are quite relevant. When playing deep they're not, blah blah blah.
Fantastic. The context was a low limit game, not PLO.

Quote:
Lol @ KK being largely irrelevant. OOOOOOOk guys.
The LOL is that statement was made by CrapsMaster, who's a winning player at nosebleed stakes, and you're arguing with him.

Quote:
PokerKat demonstrated how strong KK is when he simmed AAAKK ds against A2345 or something silly. He actually argued against his own point on accident trying to show how irrelevant "hotncold equites" are but instead demonstrating how strong KK actually is. Even with a 4 card hand that had a dead card, it beat some wheel hand in equity.
The additional pair of KK is largely irrelevant in that context because you already have AA.

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When you are playing PLO-8 5 card, and getting it allin preflop
Fantastic. Again, the context was low limit, not PLO.

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often you will be seeing people with A2xxx or A3xxx type hands. Those hands will take away equity from your AA234 hand in a way that is not shown in your stupid random equity tests, Groovin.
The discussion was not PLO all-in situations. The discussion was a low limit ring game.

Quote:
Yes, we agreed that simming against something other than random hands would be an improvement. You just want to soo bad to prove to everyone you're the smartest guy, so you want everyone to just blindly accept your bullshit assumptions.
No, being aware of a rather simple poker concept is not an indicator of being "the smartest guy." I tend to get annoyed when I see other posters receive unwarranted criticism, and you called another poster "clueless" for a statement he never made, and now you're ranting and raving about a completely different topic.

Quote:
We were arguing different things, but lets not go there because it is far far far far far far far far far more important for you to prove to this message board that you are right.

You argued very strongly because you are stuck on this limit game. (Have you even played 5 card omaha8 limit? seriously. I've never even seen the game.)
For fucks sake, you were told this about ten times already. TBC was playing 3-6 or 4-8 limit 5 card o8 at some So Cal casino, I think Barona, and said that AAKK2ds was the best possible hand. Toledo Tom disagreed that it was the best. You said Toledo Tom was clueless for saying "AAKK2 ds sucks," which he never said; he merely said it was not the best hand. You then went on lengthy tirades about PLO and all sorts of other stuff

Quote:
Most of my arguing was based on analyzing PL style of the game where all the other stuff you prattled on about is irrelevant. I can say this a 100 times and you'll just ignore it and go down some other asinine thread of thought.
That's great. PL is irrelevant to limit. I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself. This is probably the thirtieth time you've been told "the context was low limit."

Quote:
Been there, done that. Don't give a shit.
You don't give a shit, but you're replying a week later. Right.

Quote:
You said an awful lot of nonsense yourself that was infact 100% wrong.
Nope. I certainly say wrong things about poker, but not in that thread.

Quote:
Literally the only thing I learned in that whole thread was that your intellectual honesty is quite lacking and you are purely driven by some pathetic ego.
Replying to a topic about the actual topic is called "being able to communicate with other people." Sticking to the topic of low limit when the context of low limit and ignoring zillions of references to PLO is called "staying on topic."

You've been told numerous times the topic was TBC's low limit game and you're ignoring that, so you're either impaired when you're posting or otherwise unable to follow a simple flow of logic.

TBC "I'm playing low limit 5card O8. AAKK2 ds best hand."
Toledo Tom "Not best."
Hecky "You think AAKK2 ds sucks? You're clueless."
Groovin "He didn't say it it sucks, he said it isn't the best hand."

That discussion is very simple to follow, and you were told that was the topic numerous times. Being unable to figure out we were talking about limit after I told you for the thirtieth time is some sort of defect. Whatever is preventing you from being able to follow a simple train of logic, I suggest you avoid posting on the internet when you're in that state because it's impossible to communicate with someone who reads numerous posts saying "the context was a low limit game" and keeps ranting about PLO.

Last edited by GroovinMahoovinPartDeux; 08-21-2013 at 02:41 AM.
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  #10  
Old 08-21-2013, 02:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hecky View Post
You have serious mental issues. In PLO, where most of the money is getting in preflop, equities are quite relevant. When playing deep they're not, blah blah blah.

Lol @ KK being largely irrelevant. OOOOOOOk guys. PokerKat demonstrated how strong KK is when he simmed AAAKK ds against A2345 or something silly. He actually argued against his own point on accident trying to show how irrelevant "hotncold equites" are but instead demonstrating how strong KK actually is. Even with a 4 card hand that had a dead card, it beat some wheel hand in equity.
I demonstrated nothing of the sort. Everything is being driven by the AA.

5-Card Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation ?
600,000 trials (Randomized)
Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
AAATT 49.88% 241,157 357,402 0 0 0
A2345 50.12% 242,598 242,598 0 306,433 0


Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
AAAKK 49.99% 241,762 358,085 0 0 0
A2345 50.01% 241,915 241,915 0 306,133 0

Can we put this to bed? Another round is only going to show even more convincingly that hecky doesn't understand this stuff.
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