Roughing the Punter

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Old 03-03-2013, 04:02 PM
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Default 2-5 NLHE Hand -- set of deuces

This is a 2-5 game with a $10 straddle on the button (not a mandatory straddle). I'm in BB with 22. Button is straddling. UTG +1 limps for $10. Hijack limps. Cutoff limps. Button doesn't act until after the blinds. SB folds. I call $5 more. Button decides not to raise. 5-way action.

Chip stacks:

Me: $1,000
UTG +1: $1000
Hijack: $800
Cutoff: $160
Button: $600

Flop is Ac2h3h.

I bet out in front (donk bet) $30.
UTG +1 Raises to $85.
Hijack folds.
Cutoff goes all in for $160.
Button folds.

Do you agree with my $30 bet? Also, what should I do now?
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Old 03-03-2013, 08:16 PM
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I don't like the $30 bet. Why did you select that as your bet size? I don't know what you should do now, either. My decision in a spot like this would be heavily dependent on opponent(s). Raise, call, or fold are all defensible plays in certain circumstances.
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Old 03-03-2013, 10:01 PM
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I know it's really hard without knowing the opponents and their tendencies. With the people in the hand and the way it was played up to that point it seemed very unlikely that AA was out there.

As far as the $30 bet, I didn't want the hand to get checked around so I thought I might as well get the party started. 8 wanted action and was hoping to get raised. I'm not saying it was a good bet but that was my reasoning. I think one of my weak aspects of my game is learning to play flopped sets properly from early position.

FYI the UTG +1 tanked for a long time and showed Ah5h and folded it. Short stack had 45o and I sucked out with a river 3.

I think maybe I should have invited multiway action if I thought I needed to improve to win. I felt strongly UTG +1 was ace-high flush draw but you never know. Hard to say with shortie too but I felt that he had me beat so maybe folding was proper.

I realize that it's hard to say without knowledge of the players.
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Old 03-04-2013, 01:32 AM
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It's better to lead out with a bet, but IMO $30 is the wrong size. I think betting out $60 is better. If you do get raised and then the short stack ships it in after, it is not going to reopen the betting for the raiser, so you have the option to call without the possibility of facing another raise before seeing a safe turn card and making a turn bet.

More importantly than this, with the stack sizes you're up against, a $60 bet sets up an allin by the river against some of them. It gets hands like AQ stuck in the pot, which is precisely what you want to happen. Ideally you are going to barrel three streets and get called three times by something like AT - AK. If you barrel for PSBs on the turn and river and one guy thinks to himself "why so much" and heroically calls your obvious busted flush draw down that's bets of $60, $175, and $525. That nearly stacks the guy with $800 (and against him you can just stick him all-in on the river anyway) and does stack the guy with $600. Starting with a $30 bet here doesn't allow for that possibility. This bet, bet, bet approach is cleaner than resorting to a c/r at some point, which a $30 bet necessitates if you want to get their stacks in. I think this sort of scenario, where one guy calls you down with an Ax hand is more likely than the scenario you faced, so that's what you should be thinking about. It's just gravy that the $60 bet also protects you from the pot getting reopened by the short stack if another guy raises you.

If you're up against skilled enough players in a 2/5 game such that they understand this is what your $60 bet accomplishes that a $30 bet does not, then you're probably in a crappy game. But, then again, crappy 2/5 games abound these days, so I guess you have to take what you can get. Only you know the lineup in this situation well enough to know if a $30 bet really is as good as a $60 bet here. IME it almost never is.

Playing sets OOP is harder; there's no way around that. This is precisely why small pairs have limited value in EP.
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Old 03-04-2013, 12:38 PM
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Thanks for the excellent reply. Much appreciated. I like your recommendations.

And you're right about the 2-5 games getting bad. I haven't been in many good 5-10 games lately either. The 10-20 games I've seen, which I'm willing to play, have looked like nothing but solid players.

I'm considering looking into some of the donkaments around town like the Deep Stacks and such. I don't like playing tournaments because I prefer playing on my own schedule, but maybe there's more dead money in those.
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Old 03-04-2013, 08:35 PM
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Maybe you should check out Multi Action Poker at the Aria. I'd be very curious as to how good the games are when it's a PLO/NHLE mix.
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Old 03-05-2013, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craps Master View Post
Maybe you should check out Multi Action Poker at the Aria. I'd be very curious as to how good the games are when it's a PLO/NHLE mix.
I like this idea. The last time I saw them playing it, they were playing two 1-3 NLHE games simultaneously. While the buy in would be small, the increased hands per hour as well as the increased ability for opponents to make mistakes might make this game viable.
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Old 03-06-2013, 07:00 PM
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My opinion:

Preflop seems reasonable.

A "donk" bet is if there is a preflop raiser. There is no preflop raiser here. But even if there was a preflop raiser, if you have a hand you need to protect (and you do) you need to bet out this flop. This is a drawy board, so I like overbetting this pot. At least a pot sized bet.

With your bet, neither opponent is giving much information about if they flopped as stronger hand. UTG+1 could have a strong ace. The all in cutoff could have anything from a weak hand to a draw. I am more concerned about the UTG+1

So as played, I am thinking raising to $320. This forces UTG+1 into a stack decision. Most likely he will fold and you will be ahead of the cutoff. If he shoves, you can fold. If he calls, you can probably shove on the turn if its not a heart.
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Old 03-10-2013, 06:02 PM
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my two cents. hard to disagree with anything crapsmaster laid out. excellent post including leading with sets on draw boards with this many players and the sizing of the bets related to stacks.

I think raising over the all in is the proper play. only thing i have to add is that i would need some serious info on UTG+1 to make a decision in regards to raising over the all in with a 5bet and then folding. esp since the range would appear to weigh heavier towards A3/33 then 54 or AA. I'd also need to know if this villain is tricky enough to limp AA UTG+1 which seems unlikely or has enough to gambol to ship it over with the nut flush draw.

this starts to put me in a mind game of trying to figure out if this villain is willing to ship it all in with A3 and how often as opposed to the obvious 33. against a solid player i can see considering a fold if you can take A3 out of the range as a limp UTG+1 and know he's not willing to gamble without a math edge.

anyways, blah blah blah, it makes for a pretty sick spot if you pop it up over CO and UTG+1 reships over you. It would be akin to folding KK preflop I guess.

it almost means you need to consider sizing your 5bet small enough for a fold but that just seems insane to even consider.

thoughts or am i squeezing a sponge that's already dry?
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Old 03-12-2013, 10:07 AM
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The decision to call or raise and then what to do if opponent raises or reraises is entirely read dependent, though I think if you raise here you are committing yourself.
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